Referendums, informed voting and the trouble with a ‘truth commission’
Following the EU referendum, there have been demands for a ‘truth commission’ to be set up to oversee future referendum campaigns. Paul Kildea argues that there are significant practical difficulties to the establishment of such a body. These include the possibility of a ‘chilling effect’ on speech, the fact that the accuracy of many controversial campaign statements would be impossible to assess and the probability that the interventions of a ‘truth commission’ would become political flashpoints in themselves. It would therefore be better to focus on other changes that can be made to better prepare voters for their choice at the ballot box – such as improving the design of official pamphlets and the increased use of deliberative mechanisms such as citizens’ assemblies.
One of the many talking points to have emerged from the EU referendum in June is whether a ‘truth commission’ should be established to oversee future referendum campaigns. Numerous commentators have expressed frustration at the misleading claims made by both Leave and Remain campaigners, and feel that something must be done to protect voters against the wilful spread of misinformation. In a high profile report, the Electoral Reform Society recommended that ‘[a]n official body – either the Electoral Commission or an appropriate alternative – should be empowered to intervene when overtly misleading information is disseminated by the official campaigns’. At around the same time, a change.org petition called for the establishment of ‘an independent Office of Electoral Integrity (OEI) to factually verify the truthfulness of claims made during political campaigns…with powers to issue fines and factual clarifications’. That petition, which attracted over 165,000 supporters, has received 49 signatures since being published as an Early Day Motion in the House of Commons.
The objectives of improving the quality of referendum debates, and assisting voters to make informed choices, are worthy ones. However, the establishment of a body to monitor the content of campaign statements would be misguided. Efforts to foster informed voting should be directed elsewhere.
Concerns about false and misleading campaign statements
It is understandable why the idea of a truth commission emerged in the aftermath of the EU referendum. In a hard fought campaign, both sides were accused of misleading voters through exaggerations, distortions or outright lies. The Leave campaign was widely criticised for claiming that the UK sent £350 million a week to Brussels, and intimating that it could instead be spent on the NHS. Remain, meanwhile, was singled out for exaggerating the economic impacts of leaving the EU, including a claim that households would be on average £4,300 worse off. Other flashpoints included the release of UKIP’s anti-immigration poster, featuring a huge queue of migrants and refugees and the tagline ‘Breaking Point: The EU has failed us all.’ A survey conducted near the end of the campaign found that nearly one-half of voters (46 per cent) thought that politicians from both sides were ‘mostly telling lies’, while only 19 per cent thought that they were ‘mostly telling the truth’.
While the Brexit debate was particularly fractious, concerns about the spread of misinformation are not isolated to referendums in the UK. On the contrary, referendums everywhere have long been criticised for being prone to unscrupulous campaigning that pays scant regard for the truth. To cite just a few international examples, in the lead up the 1999 referendum on whether Australia should become a republic, No campaigners argued that change would ‘cost us our stability, our certainty and our security’ and would render Australia ‘comparable to Nazi Germany’. And prior to last year’s Irish vote on same-sex marriage, the No campaign circulated material that drew a baseless connection between the referendum and surrogacy laws.
Exaggerations, half-truths and lies are also a feature of election campaigns. However, they are arguably more problematic in relation to referendums. Whereas a candidate elected on the back of misleading statements will have to answer for them after the poll, referendum campaigners face no such accountability. The argument to restrain referendum campaigners from making such statements in the first place is therefore stronger.
Regulating campaign content: some precedents
There are few precedents available to guide the design of a referendum truth commission. Much existing regulation of campaign content concerns elections and tends to be limited. In the UK it is an offence to make false statements of fact in relation to a candidate’s personal character or conduct, without believing them to be true nor having reasonable grounds for doing so. In Australia, it is an offence to mislead or deceive an elector as to the manner in which they cast a vote at an electionor referendum – for example, by providing false instructions on how to fill out a ballot paper. General laws on defamation will often apply to campaign material. Such regulation falls well short of entrusting an independent body to monitor the truthfulness of campaign statements.
The state of South Australia is a rare jurisdiction that has taken a more interventionist approach to regulating the accuracy of campaign content. Its regime provides only a partial guide for proponents of a referendum truth commission, in that it applies only to elections and to the publication of advertisements. Also, decisions about ‘truthfulness’ are ultimately left to the courts, rather than the Electoral Commission or some other independent authority.
Under section 113 of the Electoral Act 1985 (SA), it is an offence to authorise, cause or permit the publication of an election advertisement by any means (including on radio or television) that ‘contains a statement purporting to be a statement of fact that is inaccurate and misleading to a material extent’ (that is, to a substantial or significant extent). The state’s Electoral Commissioner may request that such an advertisement be withdrawn and/or that a retraction be issued, and can seek a court order to support that request. Individuals (including opposition campaigners) can also request a withdrawal and/or retraction, provided that they can demonstrate standing. In the event that a prosecution is launched against an advertiser, the maximum penalties that apply are $5,000 for individuals and $25,000 for corporations. It is a defence for an advertiser to establish that they played no part in determining the content of the advertisement in question and ‘could not reasonably be expected to have known that the statement…was inaccurate and misleading’.
Prosecutions under this provision have been rare. In one successful prosecution, a Labor Party advertisement was ruled misleading for stating, without basis, that the Liberal Party supported the closure of schools with fewer than 300 students. In another case, an independent candidate established that a Liberal Party advertisement had misled voters about the workings of the preferential voting system by claiming that a vote for him would ‘give you’ a Labor Premier.
New Zealand also regulates the making of misleading statements during election campaigns, but only for the two days preceding polling day. It is an offence within that period to make ‘a statement of fact that the person knows is false in a material particular’. Notably, both the South Australian and New Zealand laws apply only to statements of fact.
Designing a referendum truth commission: challenges
The dearth of precedents shows that the establishment of a referendum truth commission in the UK would be a novel initiative. It would also be one that is likely to raise concerns about free speech and encounter significant practical difficulties.
One of the main objections to empowering a body to monitor the truthfulness of campaign statements (in advertisements or otherwise) is that it would have a ‘chilling’ effect on campaign speech. The prospect of having the accuracy of one’s campaign utterances second-guessed, especially under threat of a fine, could cause campaigners to hold back from making legitimate claims. This would have the effect of reducing the amount of information available to voters.
A second issue is that many of the problematic claims made during referendum campaigns are promises and predictions, rather than statements of fact. The accuracy of such statements may be impossible to assess. For example, the claim that British families would be £4300 worse off if the UK left the EU is tendentious, but as a prediction of future wellbeing it is difficult to conclude that it is inaccurate and misleading. Statements that amount to exaggerations or emotional appeals (‘reform will put our security/stability/wellbeing at risk’; ‘Breaking Point: The EU has failed us all’) are also difficult to evaluate. Even if a truth commission could only monitor statements of fact (as in South Australia) the task of identifying such statements, and measuring their accuracy, would not always be straightforward.
Another important question concerns who would be responsible for assessing the veracity of campaign statements. A standalone ‘truth commission’ is one option. The effectiveness of such a body would depend, to a large degree, on its reputation for competence and independence. Some steps could be taken to cultivate this – for example, the appointment of commissioners with cross-party appeal and community support. But even this would not guarantee success. In the heat of a referendum campaign, the interventions of a standalone commission would likely become political flashpoints in themselves. Campaigners who have their statements publicly corrected may see political advantage in accusing the commission of bias and otherwise challenging its standing and authority.
As the Electoral Reform Society notes, an alternative would be to empower the Electoral Commission to intervene when misleading statements are made. But, as the Commission itself has acknowledged the impression that it was taking sides in political debates could undermine its independence. It would also divert resources away from its core business of running the referendum.
The courts could also do the job, as in South Australia. In some ways courts are well-placed to assess whether statements made in campaign material are true or false. But judicial processes move slowly and it would usually take months for a court to issue a final determination on a complaint. By that point, the statement that was alleged to be misleading would have had its effect on voters and the referendum itself would be over. Injunctions can help to address this concern with timeliness, but are open to abuse: they can be used as a means of unsettling an opponent’s advertising campaign, and to divert their resources into legal challenges.
A final question concerns the types of interventions that a truth commission (or similar body) should make. A minimalist approach would be to limit the commission’s involvement to the issuing of factual corrections. This would have the advantage of minimising any impact on free speech. In the lead up to the Irish same-sex marriage referendum, the Chairperson of the Referendum Commission made an intervention of this kind when he clarified that the outcome of the vote would not affect surrogacy and adoption. The force and effect of such statements will depend on the standing of the commission and its members.
The weakness of this minimalist model is that the threat of public correction, particularly in intense campaigns, may fail to act as a deterrent. The issuing of a factual clarification may even provide free publicity for inaccurate statements, ensuring that they receive far more airtime than they otherwise would have. This suggests that a more robust approach to remedies is warranted and should include the power to issue fines. But getting the balance right is tricky: small fines may fail to dissuade campaigners from stretching the truth, while large fines will imperil free speech and strengthen the argument for involving the courts.
The experience in South Australia also suggests caution. In the view of a former state Electoral Commissioner, its ‘truth’ laws have not changed behaviour. Campaigners have not been deterred from making misleading or inaccurate advertisements. And the law has been subject to misuse, with one party member ‘fir[ing] off three or four [complaints] a day’ to disrupt his opponents’ campaign.
What is to be done?
Ultimately, the establishment of a truth commission is not the way to address concerns about false and misleading statements made during referendum campaigns. But, as the Electoral Reform Society itself acknowledged in its post-Brexit report, there are other steps that can be taken to better prepare voters to make an informed choice at the ballot box. These include improving the design of official pamphlets (including a stronger focus on impartial information) and ensuring that voters are clear about the precise consequences of their vote (as they were for the AV referendum, when substantive legislation was passed in advance and made contingent on a majority Yes vote). More can also be done in advance of the campaign – for example, by involving citizens in the design of referendum proposals through citizens’ assemblies and other deliberative mechanisms. These initiatives would not prevent unscrupulous campaigning but they would better equip citizens to critically evaluate the claims of campaigners and to cast informed votes on polling day.
This post represents the views of the author and not those of Democratic Audit. It first appeared at the Constitution Unit blog.
Paul Kildea spoke at a Constitution Unit seminar on the regulation of the EU referendum on 25 October. You can read a summary of what was said here.
Dr Paul Kildea is Senior Lecturer in Law at the University of New South Wales, Australia.
Referendums, informed voting and the trouble with a ‘truth commission’ https://t.co/LklM6h5Mj1
‘Referendums, informed voting & the trouble with a ‘truth commission’’. Interesting read by @democraticaudit: https://t.co/bkuDQuR6Ib
Referendums, informed voting and the trouble with a ‘truth commission’ https://t.co/Xppm5w6swK
Following the #EuRef, there have been demands for a #TruthCommission. Not sure if that would be the right solution: https://t.co/IrE9C2h9ql
A nicely timed and sensible contribution to this matter, where opponents have simply branded all the claims by the other sides as ‘lies’ (not just the flashpoint instances you refer to). The key in all of this is for both sides of a referendum to be allowed to put their points across, and for information to get through. The shades of grey are important as well – was “pensions will be slashed and the economy will go into immediate recession in the quarter after a vote to leave” by Cameron and Osborne and their disastrous 18-year-old ‘experts’ a lie? It didn’t happen. Further, it is suggested that those who said it knew all along that this was just Project Fear and KNEW that it was untrue, impossible to predict. And that it was specifically fabricated along with other false claims to terrify the voter into doing the bidding of the elite. Another reason why elite bodies set up to rule on claims will simply side with the elite and try to brand opponents’ claims as false.
But an important point in this matter is the effectiveness of the campaigners at calling out their opponents if they are ‘lying’ or, more correctly, not telling the whole story. Just because the Remain camp was woefully ineffective in its response to the Leave 350 million claim, that does not mean to say that they should be able to cry foul and say “it’s not fair” and ban free speech. The reality is that they did not WANT to draw attention to the real figures because the government’s own statistics are calamitous, as indeed was pointed out in the glorious exchanges between MPs, Leave campaign and the UKSA, the latter body refusing to say that the figure was ‘a lie’ and buried by its failure to actually say what it thought the real figure was.
The courts would be kept busy by that one and it would be a useful exercise for anyone to do at some point to try a dispassionate audit trail of what might happen with such a claim in a ‘truth commission’, how many years it would take to work through the stats (it’s taken 40 so far and still the govt doesn’t have accurate stats) and how the failure of the Remain camp to engage was in fact the main problem – it was embarrassed about the real figure so all it would do is scream ‘lies’. So how much then, Remain? “Lies”.
So some might argue that nothing need be done at all – just sack the losing side in this referendum and get a more effective one which will not turn a 65-35 majority for Remain a few months earlier into a 52-48 majority to Leave. The elite almost did the same with their breathtaking extremism and Project Fear in the Scottish campaign, turning a big majority for No into a near win for Yes – as a Unionist, and with Scottish family, even I was so furious with my own side at their clearly false claims that I would have been tempted to vote Yes to Independence had I had a vote. Think on, as they say – yes to more info however it can be done, no to elite institutions designed using lawyerly obstruction to stop effective campaigning by the elite’s opponents.
Referendums, informed voting and the trouble with a ‘truth commission’ via @democraticaudit
#Brexit
https://t.co/BqeIQAv4Ot
A referendum ‘truth commission’ wouldn’t work. So what would? https://t.co/Xppm5w6swK
Referendums, informed voting and the trouble with a ‘truth commission’ https://t.co/LklM6hnnaz
A truth commission is not the way to address concerns about false and misleading statements in referendum campaigns https://t.co/Xppm5vOR8a
The problem of politicians lying is NOT best solved by a truth commission with legal powers to impose fines etc.
What we need is a properly functioning independent press who fact check and call out politicians for lying – and what went wrong with the EU referendum was that the press did NOT do its job of fact checking and fact-based unbiased reporting, but instead took sides. The lines between fact-based news and emotional-based reporting (what the person on the street feels about something) and editorials have been eliminated, and the role of the press in preserving democracy has been almost completely subverted by the media barons.
The US used to have a law requiring the press to be fact-based and unbiased, and it worked – but since they repealed it, the US press has changed beyond recognition and is as bad as the UK press in failing to support democracy.
So what we need is such a law,.
Paul certainly the press was a classic – for example, Guardian and Independent repeating as ‘fact’ that the economy would collapse in the first quarter after a vote against Remain and that recession was ‘guaranteed’. It didn’t happen of course. That was opinion dressed up as screaming tabloid style headlines to terrify people into voting in a particular way.
But here is the problem – most journalism is now opinion and not fact. I have just scrolled through the ‘news’ on yahoo and it’s all screaming headline and opinion dressed up as fact, talking about things ‘sparking outrage’ or people ‘playing with fire’ passing certain laws. FT, Times, Express, Mail et al all the same.
You cannot legislate to stop people giving their opinion and that is why the legislation had to go – the rules were ineffective in the US in the end, did not cover the falsehoods of government, made newspapers timid and they ended up safely pushing the government line…
Surely what we really need is for both sides of any such campaign to be effective – the Remain camp lost this one, rather than Leave winning it (and I say that as a Leave voter). They were wrong footed, but from a political point did not WANT to be drawn into the area (of the 350 million for example) because any examination of the figures and exposure of the decades of calamitous failures by govt itself to be honest or accurate about the stats could lead to far far greater problems for the government, and Labour of course, and for the campaign.
But it NOT for the underfunded and private press to make up the shortfall of the campaigners and their failures to call out opponents – journalists need spoon feeding (they do, they are busy, working on loads of stuff, writing to order) and the Remain camp REFUSED to provide them with more than screams of “lies” because quite simply they did not want the journalists to look for the truth.
And there never WAS a golden age anywhere where the press was dispassionate, never had an agenda and could be relied upon to put both sides. Least of all bodies like state radio and tv (BBC et al) and supposed self congratulatory newspapers of record.
Recession hasn’t happened YET. It may still happen – and certainly several independent bodies full of highly qualified economists think it will – whereas government politicians with little if any economists on the team would prefer to trash the experts.
However, I agree with you that journalism is now opinion rather than fact – but worse is that they fail to clearly distinguish between the two. But that doesn’t mean that it has to be this way – and my point is that unbiased fact-based journalism is actually so important to the democratic process, that if we fail to address this, democracy itself will be lost (if it isn’t already gone that is).
Paul, just a point… I too am not forecasting the future, anything could happen, and Leave did not state that the next quarter would be sunlit uplands and mega growth – but the Remain camp clearly claimed that there would be a recession “in the first quarter” and “guaranteed” after a vote against the elite. This first quarter has come and gone and there was no recession. Very very far from it. False statement. Remain further falsely stated that they would stage a budget “immediately” (the infamous Punishment Budget that they threatened the voter with) and increase taxes and slash pensions if the voters disobeyed them and voted Leave. They did not do these things ‘immediately’ (or at all) and knew they would not. Another false statement. These are clearly false claims and it is widely accepted that they were made knowing they were false. But who makes the judgement that they were liars during a campaign? The press? Does it refuse to cover these clear falsehoods after making a judgement that the Remain camp are just liars or incompetent at predictions or economics, trying to scare people with extreme falsehoods? Do lawyers advice the papers not to print anything from Remain for fear of yet more of this and the likely prosecution of the newspaper for printing the falsehoods.
However false, this was at one point the clear core of what amounted to the Prime Minister and Finance Minister’s panic driven campaign…banned from the media by fact checkers? A large number of lawyers fighting on all sides, working through the night to decide whether these are lies? How quickly? Are all forecasts to be barred from newspapers as impossible to predict? Only those of ‘the wrong’ side? And what is the penalty on newspapers for printing such falsehoods as the government’s claims?
As a Leaver I honestly say that they and their cheerleaders in the press like the Guardian and Times and FT and Independent (a blog now, not a paper, but people still think it is a paper) should just be allowed to hang themselves with as many false claims and Project Fear predictions as they like…it gives those who support my view the chance to rebut them and make them look either incompetent or worse. I wish they and their tame ‘newspapers’ (see above) had lied even more and given my side a 55-45 victory.
The press is bad but attempts to censor it, alas, are worse…and will only play into the hands of the elite. And of course then everything (every bit of news and info) will be looked for online with the newspapers acting like grave and dull (and unread) press releases for accountants or lawyers…simply no longer even having a role other than printing safe propaganda for the state after the lawyers have been through every word. And of course you cannot censor or stop the explosion of online ‘news’ easily. And surely that is even worse?!
I agree that the Remain group was forecasting doom and gloom – probably without evidence from expert economists. But compared to the whoppers Leave campaigners told which were out and out rampant lies without ANY basis in fact, the Remain untruths were tiny. That’s not an excuse for Remain telling lies, but the whole basis of the Leave campaign was blatant falsehood.
The press did NOT really call out either side for their lies, but the Remain lies were difficult to prove – you could only demand that they produced their evidence, and they probably had an opinion from someone they could have produced – but the Leave lies were so incredibly blatant that any paper could have debunked them spectacularly. The Treaty of Rome is clear that the single market and freedom of movement are linked. The £350m was made up – it should have been £50m or £80m or something. But Leave was NOT debunked by the press in the way they should have been.
A biased press is a major destroyer of democracy. Period.
It is simply untrue to say that the Leave camp ‘lied’ without providing proof or specific evidence of the exact ‘lie’- the canard about the 350 million being a lie is inadequate and itself a political ruse, and proving ‘lies’ is very difficult given the high bar/threshold. If it is a lie why did the Remain camp not provide any facts to disprove it? If you look at the correspondence between Leave and the UKSA, you will see that the UKSA goes out of its way to concede tortuously that it is NOT a lie.
It is only ‘a lie’ to those on the other side who knew they were losing and had no arguments in response about the figures which would not damage their own campaign. The danger with the use of the word ‘lie’ is that it is extreme and usually something only said in politics by those who are on the other side. No official body has said the figure is a ‘lie’.
But my real point is that no truth commission of newspaper should or could be stopped from reporting it. And neither could the claim be barred without barring almost all of the Remain Project Fear as well. It is NOT minor to terrify poor pensioners with clear falsehoods that if they vote against the elite they will have their pensions ‘slashed’ by those in a position to do so or to upend the economy by the Chancellor saying an emergency punishment budget would be immediately necessary and that economic collapse would be ‘guaranteed’, again immediately. And if the other side refuses to supply what it thinks are the real facts, then voters can make their own decision. As no official body said the claim was ‘a lie’, then the claim would have stood during the campaign – otherwise practically everything said during the campaign by everyone was speculative and should be barred.
Those are the dangers of free referenda – if they had another EU referendum they will have to do what they did in Ireland when the Lisbon vote went against the EU…they changed the rules to bar the anti-EU campaign from meaningful access to media and the right of reply!
There is a BIG difference between the Remain and Leave lies.
The Leave £350m a week claim is supposedly based on historical fact i.e. that we are actually paying this per week to the EU, and so if we stopped paying into the EU this cash could then be used for the NHS. But in fact we actually pay a lot less because we get more than £250m a week back in rebates and grants, and so we wouldn’t be anything like £350m per week better off if we left the EU. You may not think it was a lie, but most people think it was a whopper of a blatant lie because it is provably factually incorrect.
The Remain campaign claim about recession was opinion forecast about the future. It should have been based on expert assessments by expert economists, with the full detail of their models published for independent verification, but it wasn’t, and so it is doubtful that it was ever based on expert opinion and was just scaremongering.
It remains to be proven whether the Remain scaremongering will or will not happen – but it was true then and is still true now that there will never be £350m a week to give to the NHS.
And that is the difference between the Remain and Leave arguments.
Note: The same can be said about the Leave statements that we could stay in the single market, not contribute to the EU and not have freedom of movement. Again, there are facts which show this cannot be the case and no evidence to show that it could ever be the case – specifically what the Treaty of Rome actually says, and real-life evidence from the Norway / Sweden / Switzerland negotiations. It was quite simply wishful thinking in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, or as most people would say “a lie”.
NOTE: Unless Damian comes up with a different argument which itself is based on acts and logic, there does not seem to be much pointg in responding again.
P.S. According to newspapers today, the Leavers are apparently still of the opinion that we can “have our cake and eat it” (as that was what they had on a briefing paper).
It seems to me that actually it is far more likely that we will both not have any cake and be going hungry. Once we trigger Article 50, we will have two years to negotiate a deal with the EU which requires unanimous agreement from every other EU country – and all e.g. the French need to do is to say “Non” to every proposal we put forward for 2 years, and after 2 years we will suddenly find ourselves out of the EU without any deal either with the EU. And since we cannot even START to negotiate deals with other countries until we have actually left, we wont have those either.
If we want a favourable deal, we need to be asking very nicely for one pretty please, because no one in the EU has to do anything nice for us. They just need to wait and let the time pressure cause us to capitulate.
Similarly we cannot survive without imports, but other countries can go elsewhere for their imports.
See what I mean about No Cake and No Eating.
By using incorrect claims and the word ‘lies’ this is how Remain tried to close down arguments and failed – you say “NOTE: Unless Damian comes up with a different argument which itself is based on acts and logic, there does not seem to be much point in responding again.” This NOTE (in capital letters, it would have been green ink in the old days) – what basis is the order to not respond made? I have given so many ‘facts’ that you clearly do not wish to acknowledge. All you give in response is parts of the Remain brochure.
The claim that you cannot have single market access without freedom of movement is in fact possible simply through negotiation. Take the Liechtenstein agreement which has been aired. The point you are missing as a hardline remainer Paul is that there is going to be a negotiation. And negotiations mean precisely that. Anything can happen if it suits – the EU tears up all sorts of agreements or customs when it suits. The Leave campaign did NOT say there would be ‘no freedom of movement’, or it would have lost… in fact you do not even quote literature and published claims on this because again they do not fit the Remain Project Fear and Lie or Remainer fantasy. You base your argument on the position of a Remain campaigner on tv when they finally grasped that they might lose. No official when asked has said that the 350 million is a lie – what they have said that the use of any figure (any figure) is “potentially misleading” due to the chaotic failures of the state in defining how much the UK pays into the EU and what could be got back and used.
There is a simple reality, however much Remainers want to silence Leave supporters by trying to use arthritic and clearly anti-democratic attempts to close down argument (“We know best…no point in responding as I know I am wrong but I don’t want to admit it”).
It is that the use of the word ‘lie’ is always a mistake, the 350 million claim is far from what you have said. claims about it are tendentious and partial and of course as always the Remain campaign and its supporters do not rise to the challenge of saying what the actual figure is. Whatever you were to claim could be said to be a ‘lie’ based on other figures. Back to the main point, that’s why no official gang of state elite appointed truth commissioners could ban this claim without banning all of the Remain camp’s claim.
Finally you do not seem able to grasp what I have said that was palpably false and wicked to say by Remainers and has NOT come true – neither do you ever address it which makes clear you either accept that it was false or do not wish to address it – Remain claimed a punishment budget would be IMMEDIATELY necessary, slashing pensions and hiking taxes (wicked, when stated by the main officers of state in a position to attack the people in this way, false campaigning if ever there was one). They claimed that an immediate recession in the very first quarter was ‘guaranteed’ if the voter disobeyed the elite.
Where is their threatened ‘immediate’ punishment budget (they still have a majority in Parliament of all those backing the claims) which they clearly knew was false? Where is their ‘guaranteed’ recession in ‘the very next quarter’ (I assume you know what happened with the UK in ‘the very next quarter’? if not, I think I have an exclusive for you) – if of course “NOTE, there is no point is responding with facts to counter Remain propaganda”. Happy days.
1. The NOTE was relating to me not responding to you, not any form of demand that you should not respond.
2. I have not read the Remain brochure, and am not quoting from it. My arguments are logical and well argued and are based on facts. Yours are lacking in evidence, are emotionally oriented rather than fact based and as such are simply denial and appear at least-as-much if not more than mine to be from the Leave song-sheet.
3. I have never said that Remain didn’t lie, so please stop suggesting that I did. I have just pointed out that forecasts for the future can only be opinion, whereas statements about the past can be fact checked.
4. Here are a few links to very recent news articles (by real journalists not amateurs like us) about the economy:
https://news.sky.com/story/consumer-confidence-drops-amid-growing-fears-for-the-uk-economy-10677050
https://www.itv.com/news/2016-11-30/economic-gloom-sets-in-as-consumer-confidence-slumps/
That said, here is one which isn’t quite as bad:
https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/737897/Brexit-forecast-UK-economy-doom-WRONG-IFS
but all this says is that it might not be quite as bad as the 2008 melt-down, but then again it could also be worse than that.
I agree that when you look at certain measures, the short-term impact of Brexit was positive. By devaluing the pound, it boosted shares and exports which made the economy look good in the first quarter. But we know that we are going to get inflation of at least 5% (because half our economy is impots and the cost of imports has gone up by 10%), and despite government rhetoric, there is no real evidence to suggest we will be able to get a good (or even reasonable) exit deal from the EU, and a lot of anecdotal evidence that EU politicians and the EU Commision intend to make it as painful as possible for us.
Perhaps you can provide your evidence (rather than simply your personal belief) that the economy will not suffer due to Brexit.
Paul, no-one can make predictions whether the UK will ‘suffer economically’. These ‘experts’; certainly made a right horlicks of the specific ‘predictions ‘ they made, didn’t they? These are the type of predictions presumably that if I made them would be banned under fact-checking rules by journalists! I cannot state that my own are fact or true. No-one can. All I know is that the Remain camp made false economic predictions about specifics to terrify people, these claims are now PROVED to be false, and those making them knew them to be false. If I were to say that the economy would grow b y x%, I would simply be making it up like all those supposed ‘professional forecasters’ did – I would probably be more accurate, but that is just an accident because they are political and were finding results that their masters demanded so had to fly in the face of economic commonsense or professionalism (or they would be sacked if they said ‘we predict the economy will not suffer at all immediately after the vote’…he who pays the piper…)
I do not bother taking that seriously what ‘journalists’ say – they have to do stuff to deadline, are fairly inaccurate in areas like this (even those that agree with my view get things hopelessly wrong!), written for sensation (their job is to sell papers not to be accurate) and certainly not to be used as future ‘sources’ for fact. Just sources for opinion or a good laugh. We can all choose ones we like to suggest as sources! “That’s a good yarn, it must be true, it fits my beliefs”.
The real point surely is this, and it relates to the point the author has made – I agreed with some of your initial comment but suggested that there is no point making newspapers only print ‘fact based unbiased reporting’ because you cannot easily define that. In any event, forcing newspapers not to cover comments made or to have their own stance will mean that simply everything will go online.
News in papers would become all ‘state news’, checked by lawyers and accountants, tedious, dull, devoid of any interest…and newspapers like The Guardian would simple collapse, as the Independent did already. Now that the latter is just a blog, would it be covered by draconian rules to bar it from reporting, for example, the then PM’s entirely false claim during the campaign that ‘studies’ exist to prove that Turkey will not accede to the EU until about the year 3000? The EU says it has no knowledge of these ‘studies’ and the ex-PM has failed to produce them. More ‘studies’ cobbled together by 19-year-old backroomers to ‘prove’ a point like the Iraq War dossiers? We won’t know because we proles are barred from having access or sight. And these are cited on tv by the leading officer of state with no proof or way of checking. Scandalous. So the blog called the Independent newspaper can print these as propaganda for its chosen side, with appropriate 120 point headlines…while the Guardian must simply be silent on the false claims? Or spend tens of thousands on lawyers fees, frantically obtaining documents which the government will not provide? And who is to decide how long all this takes, all the while the real debate taking place online, and usually even worse than in the newspapers – the newspapers just do not have the budget for this unless the state hands over a few million to each newspaper and then orders them what to print and what not to.
“Fact-based” rules out almost all of the Remain campaign’s arguments – there was no ‘fact-checking’ done by any newspaper on the absurd claims, they just looked so absurd.
The best story on this I can give is when a focus group discussing the election three weeks before the vote had its members around the table. I used to help run focus groups and there is nothing truer than the organisers’ comment that people tend to say the most valuable things as an aside. A woman came in, sat down, and said in passing: “just been to the hairdressers, and that Osborne came on the tv in the salon, He started going on about how all pensioners would be four thousand and whatever pounds worse off if we dared vote Leave…. Well everyone in the salon just fell about laughing.”
There’s your fact checking Paul – better than rules forcing the papers to not print this and triple check that and dance around that with clever lawyerly words. Let the clowns crashing around on a minefield continue to do so (cheers to that, thanks George) – as I have said already, our side didn’t win, your side lost it by making these wild and extremist claims about Turkey and savage slashing of pensions and massive tax rises and ‘immediate and guaranteed’ financial collapse. Long may the Remainers be allowed to make daft statements. I’d allow and encourage more. On that basis, my lot could have sat at home with a good book and a mug of cocoa for 6 weeks and still won.
Referendums, informed voting and the trouble with a ‘truth commission’ https://t.co/Xppm5w6swK https://t.co/y0rTQ4JHR2